Friday, February 2, 2007

Week 5: Passer

We have now read two poems (carmina 2 and 3) where the Lesbia's sparrow is the focus. Compare and contrast these two poems. Take the sparrow at face value, and explain how Catullus uses the sparrow to do what he is doing in each poem. What is he doing in these two poems? Is he doing the same thing, or something different in each? Quote from the Latin text and justify your views. This need not be a lengthy response, but a well-documented with Latin text--response.

45 comments:

Jeep3 said...

Catullus repeats the phrase “passer deliciae meae puellae/ sparrow, favorite or delight of my girl” in the two poems in the exact same written format. He uses the repeat as a strong support for the theme of the two poems: how important the sparrow is to Lesbia’s happiness. By repeating this phrase, Catullus emphasizes the fact that the sparrow is indeed the closest animal to Lesbia’s heart. He uses the sparrow to describe himself indirectly, “cum desiderio meo nitenti carum nescio quid lubet iocari et solaciolum sui doloris/when for my bright desire it is pleasing to make a joke and relief of her grief” in Carmen 2, relates himself to the playing and holding she does with the sparrow—both characters give her relief from her grief, both desire to please her (assuming taking the sparrow at face values implies that Catullus and the sparrow are two separate characters). Catullus manipulates the character of the sparrow to having a pleasing personality that would seem to be his own, except he thinks of himself less capable of pleasing Lesbia. Besides indulging in details about how important and desirable the sparrow is to Lesbia, there is no definite relationship between Carmen 2 and 3. After Catullus announces that the sparrow has died, he reiterates some of the admirable qualities of the sparrow that he listed in Carmen 2 to emphasize how great the loss is to her. Examples are: Carmen 2 “quem in sinu tenere/she is accustomed to hold in her lap” is reiterated in Carmen 3 “nec sese a gremio illius movebat/nor did it move itself from her lap.” This phrase describes the sparrow’s dedication to the girl and the unwillingness of the sparrow to go anywhere else. The sparrow wishes to be with Lesbia and only her. Then, when the sparrow dies, her happiness dies and Catullus carefully analyzes her change in mood by describing his admiration for Lesbia’s “venustas” through avid examinations of her physical and emotional states after the sparrow dies. “tua nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli/ now, on account of your doing on my girl’s swollen eyes are red from weeping” Catullus shows frustration towards the sparrow for leaving “his” girl like that. The ironic thing about these two poems, if taking the sparrow at face value, is that the sparrow is dearest to Lesbia and Lesbia is dearest to Catullus, so, by using the sparrow, I wonder whether Catullus truly loves Lesbia, or whether he simply delves in the thoughts of Lesbia’s happiness brought on by another character—because he knows he cannot be as pleasing a man to have her love him back the way he wants her to.

hannaH said...

Both Carmen 2 and 3 are adressing "Passer, deliciae meae puellae" (Sparrow, favorite of my girl) and "passer, deliciae meae puellae" (the sparrow, delight of my girl), but in Carmen 2, he seems optimistic because of the specific words like play, joke, passion, and desire, and in Carmen 3 he talks in a more pessimistic manner, speaking of mourning, death, sorrow, and weeping. Also, he specifically uses past tense consistantly throughout the poem, intensifiying the mood of this love and passion being in the past.
In these two poems he is speaking of how Lesbia loves to play with this "bird", and that the bird loves being played with equally. In Carmen 2 he is rejoicing and praising and being joyful about the situation this bird is in, but in Carmen 3, he is basically saying that this bird is dead to Lesbia, his apparent ex-lover.

welchie said...

Catullus, in carmen 2, it talking about how the girl loves the sparrow and how the two of them spend their time together. The sparrow makes the girl happy and "solaciolum sui doloris"-it lightens the sad cares of her mind. In carmen 3, the sparrow has died, which has caused the girl great sadness: "tua nunc opera meae puellae/flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli"-"Now on account of your work my girl's/slightly swollen little eyes are red from weeping." In both poems Catullus is showing how the sparrow makes the girl happy, but he does not really seem of connect the poems except for the repeat of the prase "passer, deliciae maea puellae"-"sparrow, favorite of my girl"

Jesx said...

The two poems relate because they both talk about Lesbia's love for the sparrow. He repeats "passer deliciae meae puellae" or "sparrow, favorite of my girl." Yet, they contrast significantly. In poem 2, Catullus speaks of the happy moments that she has with the sparrow. Line 2 says "quicum ludere" or "with whom she is accustomed to play." On the other hand, poem 3 says "the sparrow of my girlfriend has died" or "passer mortuus est meae puellae." Another point to take note of between poems 2 and 3 is the joy it brings her and then the great sorrow. Line 10 of poem 2 stating "et tristis animi levare curas/to lighten the sad cares of your mind." is in contrast to lines 17 and 18 of poem 3 stating "tua nunc opera meae puellae
flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli./ Now on account of your work my girl's
slightly swollen little eyes are red from weeping."

bri720hco said...

In carmen 2 Catullus tells us all about how much Lesbia loves her sparrow or "bird". He states "Passer, deliciae meae puellae". Showing us that she loves this sparrow very much and holds in close to her heart. He tells us how happy she is while spending time with it. In carmen 3 it says "passer mortuus est meae puellae". He tells us what kind of affect the death of her sparrow has on her. the sparrows death causes great sadness and heartache. He sees her eyes red and swollen from crying. Both poems show Lesbia love for the sparrow but in different way. Carmen 2 shows good part with happiness, play and passion. in carmen 3 it shows the down side sadness, heartache, weeping from the loss of a love.

Will Ravon said...

Even though both Carmen 2 and 3 use sparrow as the subject each refer to sparrow in a different sense. In Carmen 2 Catullus talks about how Lesbia loves the sparrow and plays with it. Physically the sparrow is Lesbia's pet that she loves. Metaphorically it refers to Catullus's special member that Lesbia enjoys. In Carmen 3 the sparrow has unfortunately died and Lesbia is sad becuase of this. Physically the sparrow still represents her pet, but metaphorically I believe it to mean that she has lost her love for Catullus.

shocka said...

In both Carmen 2 and 3, Catullus uses "passer deliciae meae puellae," which means "sparrow of my sweet girl," to express two very different emotions about Lesbia. In Catullus 2, he uses the sparrow to explain the happiness of the girl and her sparrow and how he wishes he could have the same effect: "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas!" (How I wish that I were able to play with you just as she does, and to lighten the sad cares of the soul!)

Then, in Catullus 3, he seems to contradict himself, claiming that the sparrow has now died and had the opposite effect on Lesbia, his love. He declares that "tua nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli," meaning "by your work the little puffy eyes of my girl are red from crying."

Through these two poems Catullus uses an indirect source, the sparrow, to flip between contrasting emotions.

Frank said...

In both poems, Catullus' main focus is the sparrow. However, in Carmen 2, Catullus focuses more on what Lesbia enjoys doing with the sparrow while in Carmen 3, Catullus focuses on the love Lesbia had for the sparrow and the sorrow she feels after it's death. In Carmen 2, line 2, Catullus writes "quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere," which translates into "with whom she is accustomed to play, whom she is accustomed to hold in her lap." Carmen 2 is a joyful poem that explains the relationship between a pet and an owner while Carmen 3 is a mournful poem which explains the sadness of Lesbia after her bird dies and the care that she had for it. In Carmen 3, line 5, Catullus writes "quem plus illa oculis suis amabat," which means "whom she loved more than her own eyes." This line shows the love Lesbia had for her sparrow. At the end of the poem Catullus says "vestra nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli." This says "by your work the little puffy eyes of my girl are red from crying." This shows the sadness of Lesbia after the death of her sparrow.

latin blogger said...

Carmen 2 focuses on how the girl and the sparrow interact. It creates a playful mood using words and phrases like “quem in sinu tenere, cui primum digitum dare appetenti et acris solet incitare morsus”. It describes how she plays with the sparrow and teases it with her finger. Catullus creates envy by describing the relationship of Lesbia and the sparrow. Carmen 3 is more serous because it introduces the fact that “passer mortuus est meae puellae”. Suddenly you are hit with this feeling of grief because her companion has just died. The poem describes how the sparrow used to jump around and chirp. Carmen 3 still creates the importance of the relationship between Lesbia and the sparrow, but uses its death as a catalyst to describe her sorrow and says “tua nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli”.

Vance224 said...

In Catullus 2 & 3 he uses the sparrow in place of him self. In carmen 2 he uses words like, “iocari and ludere,” indicating that he is playing with and telling jokes to Lesbia. However, in carmen 3 it repeatedly says, “passer meae deliciae puellae mortuus est.” in saying that the sparrow of his lovely girl is dead Catullus may be indicating that his love for Lesbia, which she seems to have loved more than her own eyes, is dead. In both he is acting through the sparrow. In Carmen 2 he is playing with Lesbia; in Carmen 3 he is declaring his lack of love for her.

chmathew said...

The two poems, carmina 2 and 3, are related in that they both show Lesbia’s love for her “passer.” In Carmen 2, we see how the sparrow makes the girl happy and "solaciolum sui doloris"-it lightens the sad cares of her mind. The girl loves the sparrow, and the two spend time together. In Carmen 3, when the sparrow dies, Lesbia is devastated. Her eyes are red from weeping. The first poem is happy whereas the second one is sad and depressing.

LOL said...

Both Carmen 2 and Carmen 3 focus on the importance of the sparrow's existence to Lesbia. However, Catullus takes on different tones to do what he is doing in each poem. In Carmen 2, Catullus writes in a somewhat happy and bright tone. In lines 5-8, Catullus says, "Cum desiderio meo nitenti carum nescio quid lubet iocari, et solaciolum sui doloris, credo, ut tum gravis acquiescat ardor." (When, with my shining desire in mind, it is pleasing to tease some kind of care, and a consolation of her pain, I believe that then a heavy passion is quieted.) Catullus is saying that he wants to cheer up Lesbia in playful and happy ways, such as by joking. In lines 9-10, Catullus says, "Tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas!" (How I wish that I were able to play with you just as she herself does and to lighten the sad cares of my soul!) Catullus is saying that he himself also wants to be cheered up in playful and happy ways (e.g. by playing with the sparrow) and live without worries and sadness. In Carmen 3, Catullus writes in a somewhat negative and gloomy tone. In lines 13-14, Catullus says, "At vobis male sit, malae tenebrae Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis." (But for you may it be [done] badly, evil shadows of Orcus, who devour all beautiful things.) Catullus is cursing and blaming the evil shadows of Orcus for the sparrow's death. In lines 16-18, Catullus says, "O factum male. O miselle passer! Tua nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli." (O bad deed! O miserable sparrow! Now on account of your work my girl's slightly swollen little eyes are red from weeping.) Catullus is also blaming the sparrow for causing Lesbia sorrow. In these two poems, Catullus expresses his love and concern for Lesbia, but he shows contrasting sides of love by using different tones.

said...

In Carmen 2 and Carmen 3 i do not think Catullus is trying to do the same thing. In Carmen 2 he talks about how the sparrow is playful with the girl and he wish he too could play with her and cause her to have no cares according to lines 9 and 10 where it says "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas" which means "If only I were able to play with you yourself, and to lighten the sad cares of your mind." In Carmen 3, Catullus talks about how the bird has caused his girl to mourn and become overwhelmed with sadness. He shows this in lines 17 and 18 by saying "tua nunc opera meae puellae
flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli" which means "now on account of your work my girl's slightly swollen little eyes are red from weeping." So as you can see he contrasts how the sparrow can make his girl very happy and how the sparrow can also make his girl sad and mourn.

82 said...

Carmen 2 and 3 are focused on Lesbia's sparrow. In Carmen 2 and 3 the sparrow is "deliciae meae puellae" which means "the delight of my girl". In Carmen 2 "quicum ludere" "whom she is accustomed to play with" and "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem" "if only i were able to play with you yourself" show how Catullus uses the sparrow in Carmen 2 to explain the positive relationship Lesbia and the sparrow had and how he wishes for it as well.
Carmen 3 is focused on the sadness that Lesbia feels now that her sparrow has died. Catullus at the beginning points out Lesbias love for the sparrow with "passer deliciae meae puellae" (sparrow, the delight of my girl) and "quem plus illa oculis suis amabat" (whom she loved more than her own eyes). Later, "vestra nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli" (By your work now the little puffy eyes of my girl are red from crying.) Catullus uses this to show the sadness that has come over Lesbia now that her beloved sparrow has passed.

cullenforhire said...

As previously stated, Carmen's 2 and 3 both contain the line "passer deliciae meae puellae." But the line is used in two very different contexts. In Carmen 2, Lesbia is playing with the passer, and the passer is biting back. There is no return bite in Carmen 3, because the poor passer has passed. In both Catullus shows that Lesbia cares for the bird, but he contrasts her two responses using the passer's death as a magnifier.

5ABIblood said...

The poems Carmen 2 and Carmen 3 are related because both poems show the affection between the sparrow and Lesbia. The difference is that in Carmen 2, Catullus shows that Lesbia plays and desires the sparrow, and in Carmen 3, Catullus shows Lesbia’s manner after the sparrow is dead which is sad and mournful. This is shown in Carmen 2, “quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere” (with whom she is accustomed to play, whom she is accustomed to hold in her lap). And in Carmen 3, “tua nunc opera meae puellae
flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli” (Now on account of your work my girl's slightly
swollen little eyes are red from weeping). In both poems Catullus shows Lesbia’s love for the sparrow but in different way. In Carmen 2, he shows Lesbia’s affection with happiness, play and passion. In Carmen 3, he shows Lesbia’s affection with sadness, heartache, mourning from the loss of a love.

Youknowdis said...

In the poems 2 and 3 Catullus wrote, there are immediate similarites addressing "passer", which in the latin language is sparrow. In both poems the line "Passer, deliciae meae pullae" are apparent in the text. It means 'Sparrow, favorite of my girl' in English. So this shows that Lesbia is very fond of the sparrow. In poem 2 Catullus says "cum desiderio meo nitenti carum nescio quid lubet iocari, et solaciolum sui doloris" meaning 'When it is pleasing for my shining desire to make some kind of joke, and a releif of her greif'. Catullus is saying how it releives all stress and also mentions how she is accustomed to play with the sparrow. The poem has a very postive outlook and shows how much love Lesbia has for the "passer". In poem 3, it takes a complete U-turn and speaks of depression and death. "Passer mortuus est meae puellae" meaning 'The sparrow of my girlfriend has died'. The poem uses words like weeping, bad darkness, Orcles, and mourning. Catullus also says things like "ad solam dominam usque pipilabat" meaning 'He used to chirp continually to his mistress alone" and by using the past tense showing the bird has died. The two poems can have similarities but both have a very different theme.

Postransky said...

Carmen 2 he talks about the life of the passer, how the girl loved it so and would play with it (Passer, deliciae meae puellae, quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere.) Carmen 3 is almost the poem he would say at the sparrow's funeral, remembering the joyous life of the sparrow, and it's miserable demise, (passer mortuus est meae puellae / qui nunc it per iter tenebricosum
illuc, unde negant redire quemquam,) although he doesn't say how the sparrow died, just that it is dead. So the poems are similar but different in ways. Both descibe the life of the sparrow, but Carmen 3 tells that it is dead.

In_other_words said...

In Carmen 2, Lesbia's sparrow is describes as not just a friend, but a dear companion of Lesbia. Catullus wishes that he could be viewed in Lesbia's eyes as dear as she sees her sparrow. Catullus quotes, "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas!" This statement proves that Catullus yearns to play with Lesbia and take all her cares and worries away. In Carmen 3, Catullus writes that Lesbia's sparrow has died. Her sparrow shall no longer jump in her lap or bite her index finger, or anything. Whether this sparrow represents Catullus and Lesbia's passion, or simply a bird, Catullus writes, "tua nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli."

Dr. Gregory House said...

Catullus focuses Carmen 2 and 3 around the sparrow that his girlfriend, Lesbia, loves. At face value, in Carmen 2 Catullus praises the sparrow and is thankful for the joy it brings his love. “credo, ut tum gravis acquiescat ardor/I believe then a heavy passion is quieted” Catullus wishes he could be the sparrow and calm the sorrows of Lesbia’s soul. Carmen 3 is a lamentation of the death of his beloved Lesbia’s sparrow. “passer mortuus est meae pullae/the sparrow of my girl is dead” If we take a deeper look at what the sparrow metaphorically means, Catullus uses the sparrow to represent his sadness. In Carmen 2 Catullus seems almost jealous of the sparrow’s ability to lift the burdens of Lesbia’s soul. “tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas!/how I wish that I were able to play with you just as she does and to lighten the cares of the soul!” Carmen 3 is also a sad poem, but Catullus seems to be almost too sad about the bird, as if he is making fun of the fact that this bird that his girlfriend cherishes is dead. It doesn’t seem likely that Catullus would really say “tam bellum mihi passerem abstulistis/such a beautiful bird you carry away from me” genuinely. I think Catullus and Lesbia are dealing with more issues than the loss of a pet bird. Perhaps there is some trouble with the love birds.

I can't beleive magister is a Florida Gator!!! said...

Catullus has used the same idea of the sparrow, but he has expressed two different ideas. In Carmen 2 Catullus talks about the sparrow in which his girlfriend loved: “Passer, deliciae meae puellae” (Sparrow, favorite of my girl). Carmen 2 is joyful when Catullus says “cum desiderio meo nitenti carum nescio quid lubet iocari et solaciolum sui doloris” (When it is pleasing for my shining desire to make some kind of joke and a relief of her grief) Catullus says how the sparrow is the relief of her (his girlfriends) grief.

In Carmen 3 Catullus says the same line as in Carmen 2: “passer, deliciae meae puellae” (Sparrow, favorite of my girl). However in Carmen 3, Catullus has a sad tone, and the sparrow is used to express grief when Catullus says “Lugete, o Veneres Cupidinesque” (Mourn oh Cupids and Venuses). He mournfully goes on to say “qui (Passer) nunc it per iter tenebricosum illuc, unde negant redire quemquam. At vobis male sit, malae tenebrae Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis” (who (the sparrow) now goes through that gloomy journey from where they denied anyone returns. But may it go badly for you, bad darkness of Orcus, you who devour all beautiful things). In Carmen 3 Catullus has apparently finished talking about the sparrow of his girl that has died and is now denied return from the darkness of Oracus (the underworld).

Pinky said...

In both of this poems Catullus is trying to tell us that his girlfriend’s sparrow is dead and that she loved this sparrow but also that he is also sad because his girlfriend is sad. As we can see in Carmen 2 line 1 “Passer, deliciae meae puellae…” or in English “The sparrow, favorite of my girl…” and also in Carmen 3 line 4 “...passer, deliciae meae puellae...” or in English “…the sparrow, delight of my girl…” which shows that the girl (his girlfriend) loved this sparrow very much. If we look at Carmen 2 line 5 “cum desiderio meo nitenti carum nescio quid lubet iocari et solaciolum sui doloris…” or in English “When it is pleasing for my shining desire to make some kind of joke and a relief of her grief…” and in Carmen 3 line 1-2 “Lugete, o Veneres Cupidinesque, et quantum est hominum venustiorum…” or in English “Mourn, oh Cupids and Venuses, and whatever there is of rather pleasing men…” both of this lines shows that he is also sad about the event.

Orz said...

In Carmen 2 and 3, Catullus presents a new thing, passer(sparrow), to the listeners. Although passer was presented in Carmen 2 and 3, it was used differently in two poems. In Carmen 2, Catullus describes the sparrow as a bird who hides in the girl's pocket. This is very deceiving because it's a double entendre. The passer also means male's genital, so if listener hears the other meaning, he would understand the situation of the passer and girl.
In Carmen 3, the bird is dead. Metaphorically, Catullus does not see the venustas in Lesbia. The bird did not move on girl's lap (nec sese a gremio illis movebat). Near the end of the poem, Catullus describes how it is going a journey where there is no return.

jimi said...

In Catullus 2&3 catullus essentially Catullus uses a new technique to proclaim his love for lesbia, and that is through the bird (passer) In Carmen 3 a good example of this is his repition of “passer meae deliciae puellae mortuus est.” which is translated as the sparrow of my sweetheart is dead. This i believe is an alternate way for him to express his feelings for Lesbia through the way he describes her.In carmen 2 in lines 8-10 he states "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem
et tristis animi levare curas!" which is translated as If only I were able to play with you , and
to lighten the sad cares of your mind. This is another example of how catullus instills hsi own personal feelings about her through the bird. vale!

awavehello said...

In Carmen 2 and 3, Catullus says "passer, deliciae meae puellae. (the sparrow, the delight of my girl)" empasizing how attached Lesbia was to the sparrow. In Carmen 2, Catullus talks about all of the things that Lesbia did with her sparrow, giving us a picture of their bond. Then, in Carmen 3, he tells how upset Lesbia is at the loss of her pet and tries to play a guilt card
(at vobis male sit, malae tenebrae
Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis:
tam bellum mihi passerem abstulistis
o factum male! o miselle passer!
tua nunc opera meae puellae
flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli. )
getting the reader to feel for Lesbia. The poems seem to almost be his way of asking for the reader to have feelings for Lesbia so that they understand that she has lost the thing closest to her heart and cannot easily be comforted.

baseball0808 said...

Catullus addresses the sparrow in each of these poems. He uses the phrase twice, "passer deliciae meae puellae" which means "sparrow, delight of my girl". However there is a deeper meaning of this phrase in each of the poems. In carmen 2, he speaks in a very optimistic manner to make it seem like Lesbia is happy and joyful with this bird. However in carmen 3, the bird has apparently died and they seem very much more depressed because of the passing of a most magnificent bird. He even goes on to talk about how the sparrow's death has caused her eyes to swell and redden from crying, while they are both very happy in carmen 2 when the bird is alive and well. The only similarity of both of the poems is Lesbia's love for the sparrow, which is apparent from her spending her every free second with him in carmen 2, and from her deep depression in carmen 3 when the little guy has fallen into the deepest sleep.

Gretzky said...

In carmen 2 catullus writes about the sparrow and refers to it as the relief of her greif, line 7 "sōlācĭŏlūm sŭī dŏlōrĭs", which means literaly "a relief for her grief". Furthamore in line 8 says "crēdo ūt tūm grăuĭs ācquĭēscĕt ārdŏr" which means "I believe, so that her heavy passion may become quiet." and bascily infers that because the sparrow is there he is not able to win Lesbia over due to the fact that the sparrow takes away all her miseray and does not let her thimk about her in a sad manner.

In carment 3 however, the sparrow dies, and catullus seems to make fun of it in the opening line which states "lūgēte ō Vĕnĕrēs Cŭpīdĭnēsquĕ ēt quāntūm est hŏmĭnūm uĕnūstĭōrŭm." or in english means something to the effect of "Mourn, oh Cupids and Venuses, and whatever there is of rather pleasing men." A complet mockery in modern english of the poor bird dieing, the one that in line 5 "quēm plūs īlla ŏcŭlīs sŭīs ămābăt." which means "whom she loved more than her own eyes" and continues the mockery of the poor girl who is sad. It seems like Catullus no longer likes Lesbia. He has taken the completely opposit opinion of her.

srivatsanenator said...

Both 2 and 3 have Lesbia's sparrow in them but this does not mean that the meaning of both poems is the same. For example in Carmen 2, lines 3-5 " quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere,
cui primum digitum dare appetenti
et acris solet incitare morsus,..." Catullus suggests many things that are being done with the passer that can be implicated in another translation as the "penis." In these lnes Catullus speaks of the passer as "with whom she is accustomed to play, whom she is accustomed to hold in her lap,
for whom, seeking greedily, she is accustomed to give her index finger
and to provoke sharp bites." With this translation there seems to be a subtle phallic undertone which implicates passion and love. In Carmen 3 Catullus takes a sad, humorous tone with the purpose of making fun of the situation while still trying to get closer to Lesbia. This is best evidenced in lines 13-16 "at vobis male sit, malae tenebrae
Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis: tam bellum mihi passerem abstulistis o factum male! o miselle passer!" This is best translated as "But may it go badly for you, bad darkness of Orcus, you who devour all beautiful things`and so beautiful a bird you taken away from me`o bad deed! o miserable sparrow!" Such lamentations over a sparrow that is not even yours seems to be a litle much and is obviously intended to be humorous.

tram192 said...

The two poems are similar yet different. Yes they both do talk about the sparrow but in different ways. For instance in Carmen 2 Catullus says "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas!" This translated to: If only I were able to play with you yourself, and to lighten the sad cares of your mind. In this poems Catullus shows how he loves Lesbia through her interactions with her sparrow and how he wishes to play with her like she plays with her bird. In Carmen 3 the sparrow dies and Lesbia is sad. In this poem he says: "malae tenebrae
Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis" which translates to bad darkness
of Orcus, you who devour all beautiful things. I believe that in Carmen 2 he, Catulus describes how he is like the sparrow and wants to play with her and in the other poem I think that the death of the sparrow show us, the reader that his feelings for Lesbia are dieing too.

tram192 said...

The two poems are similar yet different. Yes they both do talk about the sparrow but in different ways. For instance in Carmen 2 Catullus says "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas!" This translated to: If only I were able to play with you yourself, and to lighten the sad cares of your mind. In this poems Catullus shows how he loves Lesbia through her interactions with her sparrow and how he wishes to play with her like she plays with her bird. In Carmen 3 the sparrow dies and Lesbia is sad. In this poem he says: "malae tenebrae
Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis" which translates to bad darkness
of Orcus, you who devour all beautiful things. I believe that in Carmen 2 he, Catulus describes how he is like the sparrow and wants to play with her and in the other poem I think that the death of the sparrow show us, the reader that his feelings for Lesbia are dieing too.

unbuma said...

In carmen 2 and 3, Catullus uses the phrase, "passer, deliciae meae puellae," which means sparrow, favorite of my girl. In carmen 2, Lesbia is playing with the passer and it makes her happy."Cum desiderio meo nitenti," which is saying, "When it is pleasing for my shining desire." But in Carmen 3, the sparrow has passed away and she can no longer play with it. In carmen 3 the mood is sad and gloomy ("flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli/slightly swollen little eyes are red from weeping," unlike it carmen 2 where the mood is happy and playful.

whereisyourboytonight said...

The drastic difference in the way Catullus treats the sparrow in Carmen 2 and Carmen 3 seems to indicate a dramatic shift in the relationship between Catullus and Lesbia. Carmen 2 deals with the joy the sparrow brings Lesbia. While discussing when Lesbia plays with the sparrow, Catullus writes in line 7, “et solaciolum sui doloris,” which means, “and a consolation of her pain.” Playing with the sparrow helps ease the pain and sorrows in Lesbia’s life. He also expresses his wish to play with the sparrow as well. In lines 9 and 10, he writes, “tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem/et tristis animi levare curas!” which means, “how I wish that I were able to play with you just as she herself does and to lighten the sad cares of my soul.” Of course, expressing a wish to play with the sparrow is a way to express a wish to spend time with Lesbia. Because it is her sparrow, if he were to play with it, he would be with Lesbia, which I’m sure he would view as a way to lighten the cares of his soul. The views in Carmen 3 show a drastic change in his opinion. The entire poem has an air of mocking about it. In line 3, we learn, “passer mortuus est meae puellae,” which can be translated as “the sparrow of my girl is dead.” The sparrow has died, representing a possible death in his love for Lesbia, or at least a shift in his feelings for her. He also describes the journey the sparrow is making now that it is dead. In lines 13 through 15, Catullus says, “at vobis male sit malae tenebrae/ Orci. Quae omnia bella devoratis/ tam bellum mihi passerem abstulistis,” which means, “but for you may it be badly, you evil shadows of Orcus, who devours all good things: such a beautiful bird you carry away from me.” Personally, I believe that it is unlikely that Catullus would be able to discuss the passing of a sparrow so seriously with a genuinely serious fashion. I mean, it is only a sparrow. He ends the poem by saying, “tua nunc opera meae puellae/ flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli,” meaning “now by your work the little puffy eyes of my girl are red from crying.” These lines verge on baby talk, perhaps indicating that he thinks the death of her sparrow is somewhat of a joke, or at least not as serious of a matter as Lesbia is making it. Regardless, it seems that all things are not perfect in the paradise of Lesbia and Catullus.

thomas said...

Both in carmen 2 and in 3, catullus uses the phrase "passer deliciae meae puellae." he uses this in both to convey a sort of importance that this sparrow has. It is the closest thing to lesbia's heart, and is also a symbol for catullus. at face value, the sparrow has desireable attributes to catullus; those being an eccentric personality and the ability to please lesbia, two things that catullus deeply feels he can't fullfill. This is evident in carmen 3 when the poor passer dies.

Wolf Angel said...

The mood in Carmen 2 is light and playful, and gives off an overall feel of carefree bliss, which comes from lines such as 1-2 “Passer, deliciae meae puellae, quicum ludere…” which means “Sparrow of my sweet girl, with whom she was accustomed to play…” shows, literally, the playful relationship between Lesbia and her sparrow. The mood in Carmen 3 however, is very dark and bitter, seen easily in lines 11-12 “Qui nunc it per iter tenebricosum illuc unde negant redire quemquam” meaning “Who now goes through a shadowy journey to that place where from they deny that anyone returns,” which emphasizes the dark finality of the sparrow’s death. It seems that in both poems, assuming that the sparrow symbolizes the relationship itself, Catullus’s feelings for Lesbia change. In Carmen 2, though the tone seems light and happy, the last lines show that Catullus is not as happy as someone in love should be. “Tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas” means “How I wish I was able to play with you just as she herself gets to play with you to lighten the sad cares of my soul,” and it shows that for some reason Catullus is not entirely happy with the way things are at the moment. Perhaps his love for Lesbia is dying, like the sparrow, which died in Carmen 3.

Ian said...

As nearly everyone else has mentioned, the same phrase (passer deliciae meae puellae) appears in both carmina. This reinforces the idea that Lesbia loves the sparrow "plus ... oculis suis" - more than her own eyes. Catullus gives us a glimpse into the hierarchy of Lesbia's heart. He is second to a bird. A bird. He laments that the sparrow can lighten the sad cares of her heart when he cannot. I would think that, for all his outward grief for the death of his main squeeze's sparrow, he would be secretly quite thrilled that this obstacle to Lesbia's affections had been removed.

Minerva said...

Carmen 2 uses the sparrow as a means of expressing Catullus' desire for Lesbia, to be closer to her and beloved in many of the same ways as her passer. He observes the relationship wistfully, perhaps even a little jealously, watching the affectionate play between the girl and her pet: holding him in her pocket "quem in sinu tenere", and letting him nip at her finger "et acris solet incitare morsus". He wishes to put himself in the place of the sparrow "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem", so as to not only be the human lover, but the dear friend to which the girl should confide her cares, sadnesses, and worries. (he wishes to "lift up the sad cares of her mind" - "tristis animi levare curas")
Carmen 3 expands on the same theme, but laments the death of the sparrow and more importantly the grief it causes Lesbia. Catullus expresses outward sympathy for Lesbia's loss, but as a passionate lover he also feels the grasp of empathy, and because she hurts tremendously, it hurts him to see her so - "Tua nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli"
Carmen 2's mood is lighter and a reminder of happier times for Lesbia, while 3 mourns her misfortune and pain, but both are reflections of Catullus' reaction to Lesbia's emotions. They express the strength of the bond that exists between people who share one another's pain and anguish in times of desperation.

gabaseballer7 said...

Carmen 2 and 3 both focus on the sparrow to show how much Lesbia cares for it. Both of the poems contain the phrase, "passer deliciae meae puellae," which means "sparrow of my favorite girl." The sparrow obviously brings happiness to Lesbia, which is why Catullus repeats this phrase. Carmen 2 brings happiness and desire, while Carmen 3 brings a mood of sorrow and sadness. This is because the sparrow has died in Carmen 3 and left Lesbia mourning and in despair.

TiPViking said...

In Carmen 2 we encounter a "passer, deliciae meae puellae," or sparrow of my beloved girl, that is joyous. In line 2 Catullus talks about Lesbia playing with the sparrow. The poem is essentially a happy one; the sparrow is used to bring out the brightness in Lesbia. Catullus even wants to play with the sparrow- "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem", "if only I were able to play with you myself."

In Carmen 3 the mood is completely different. Catullus uses the sparrow as an object of sadness; he cries out in lines 1 and 2 "lugete, o Veneres Cupidinesque et quantum est hominum venustiorum"- "Mourn, o Venuses and Cupids and whatever there is of pleasing men!" The sparrow is dead. The object of Lesbia's happiness in Carmen 2 is gone, so Catullus is completely overcome by grief; in line 11 catullus mentions the "iter tenebricosum," or dark journey, of death.

Since the sparrow is dead, Lesbia is unhappy, which means that Catullus can no longer see things brightly. The passer was a manifested symbol of the health of their relationship; the sparrow of Carmen 2 is lively, and the relationship is well, whereas in Carmen 3 the sparrow is dead, and Catullus cries out ceaselessly with grief, because he knows that his happiness with Lesbia is also at risk.

inthecake said...

In both Carmen 2 and Carmen 3, the focus of the poem is on the “Passer, deliciae meae puellae” (Line 1 of Carmen 2) which means “O sparrow of my sweet darling.” Although these poems are both focused around Lesbia’s sparrow, they both differ. In Carmen 2, Catullus says the sparrow is with whom he wants to play, “quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere,” (line 2 of Carmen 2). Catullus wishes that he were able to play with the sparrow just as Lesbia does, (line 9 of Carmen 2) “ tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem” which will allow him to be closer to Lesbia. This is what he desires most, is to be with his beloved Lesbia. The focus changes in Carmen 3, when the sparrow of his girl is dead (line 3) “passer mortuus est meae puellae.” This could mean that Catullus’ love for Lesbia is dwindling. In Line 15-16, Catullus exclaims “Orci, quae omnia bella devoratis tam bellum mihi passerem abstulistis,” which is translated as “of Orcus, you who devour all beautiful things and so beautiful a bird you taken away from me,” which shows that the sparrow has been taken away. This can be taken to symbolizet he love Catullus has for Lesbia. So even though both poems focus on Lesbia’s sparrow, they both differ in meaning.

hannah-is-cool said...

Throughout both of Catullus' works, Carmen 2&3, the poet identifies his love, or lack of it, indirectly through the bird (passer). In both poems he addresses the pet as "passer deliciae meae puellae" (sparrow, favorite/delight of my girl.) Yet, the mood in each poem is frighteningly contrasting. In the first poem we read, Carmen 2, which seems to come before Carmen 3 chronologically, we find Catullus in a love-struck fantasy. Using the pet of his lover to describe his deep desire to enchant her, Catullus leds us to believe he could never love anything or anyone more than Lesbia. He claims "tecum ludere sicut ipsa possem et tristis animi levare curas!" (How I wish I were able to play with you just as he does, and to lighten the sad cares of the soul!)
Yet, the mood takes a disturbing turn as we read Carmen 3. Catullus swings from announcing joy, play, and desire in teh first poem to discussing the death of the sparrow, and seemingly his love for Lesbia. Catullus repeats the line "passer mortuus est meae puellae." (The sparrow of my girl is dead.) multiple times throughout the work. HE also emphasizes the somber atmosphere with such phrases as "vestra nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli" (By your work now the little puffy eyes of my girl are red from crying.)
WE are left in bewilderment at the meaning and cause of Catullus' sudden change in heart. Indirectly using the sparrow, Catullus is able to express his feelings, be negative or positive, for Lasbia. Now we are just left to wonder: what happened to their love?

Eureka! said...

In Carmen 2 and Carmen 3, Catullus uses the sparrow so that he can speak of Lesbia. In Carmen 2, Catullus speaks of how Lesbia plays with the sparrow in lines 2-4. In line 2, Catullus says that Lesbia is accustomed "in sinu tenere" to hold [the sparrow] in her pocket. In line 10, Catullus wishes that the sparrow were able "tristis animi levare curas" "to lighten the cares of my [Catullus's soul] soul" like the sparrow lightens the cares of Lesbia's soul. This poem has a somewhat wistful tone. He uses this poem to address a more happy and playful side of Lesbia.
In Carmen 3, Catullus uses the death of the sparrow to speak of Lesbia. In line 3, Catullus says, "passer mortuus est meae puellae." " The sparrow of my girl is dead." After making this statement in line 3, Catullus speaks of the times that Lesbia and the sparrow shared together. In lines 8-10, Catullus says that the sparrow, "nec sese a gremio illius movebat, sed circumsiliens modo huc modo illuc ad solam dominam usque pipilabat" "was not moving from her lap, but jumping around first here and then there. It was chirping to the lady [Lesbia] alone." After Catullus says this, there is a dramatic shift in the tone of the poem as Catullus begins to speak of the journey to the underworld that the sparrow is embarking on. Catullus speaks of Lesbia again in lines 17-18 after he curses the sparrow and the evil deed of his death because, "vestra nunc opera meae puellae flendo turgiduli rubent ocelli" "now by your work [the sparrow and the evil deed's] the puffly little eyes of my girl are red by means of crying." Unlike Carmen 2, Carmen 3 has a mournful tone. He uses Carmen 3 to address both the playful side and the mournful sides of Lesbia.

jro said...

In Carmen 3, Catullus is merely describing how much Lesbia loved the sparrow (quem plus amabat illa oculis suis; whom she loved more than her own eyes), the actions of the sparrow (circumsiliens modo huc modo illuc; jumping around first her then there etc.) and how much the sparrow will be missed (O factum malue! O miselle passer!; O evil deed! O miserable sparrow!). He is doing a similiar thing in Carmen 2 where he describes what Lesbia allowed the sparrow to do (quicum solet ludere, quem solet in sinu tenere etc) but he is also talking about how the sparrow relieved the cares,and passions, of Lesbia's mind and that he wishes the same thing for himself. So really, he is doing two similiar things by describing actions of the sparrow but also in Carmen 2 he elaborates on the effects this bird has on Lesbia and how he wishes the same effects for himself.

jro said...

In Carmen 3, Catullus is merely describing how much Lesbia loved the sparrow (quem plus amabat illa oculis suis; whom she loved more than her own eyes), the actions of the sparrow (circumsiliens modo huc modo illuc; jumping around first her then there etc.) and how much the sparrow will be missed (O factum malue! O miselle passer!; O evil deed! O miserable sparrow!). He is doing a similiar thing in Carmen 2 where he describes what Lesbia allowed the sparrow to do (quicum solet ludere, quem solet in sinu tenere etc) but he is also talking about how the sparrow relieved the cares,and passions, of Lesbia's mind and that he wishes the same thing for himself. So really, he is doing two similiar things by describing actions of the sparrow but also in Carmen 2 he elaborates on the effects this bird has on Lesbia and how he wishes the same effects for himself.

ARP Rocker said...

Because of our discussion on ancient Latin's use of "sparrow", i think that Catullus had two meanings when writing these two poems.In Carmen 2 Catullus talks of the sparrow being the love of Lesbia's life. She plays with it, it bites her, she hides it in her pocket...but if you look at the other meaning of the "sparrow", you see a more sexual approach. She likes the intercourse, she hides it, etc...However, in Carmen 3...the sparrow has died. She is very sad, which makes me think that she didnt lose her love for Catullus, but maybe he lost his love for her. That was of course metaphorically.

XRoSeSrReD317X said...

Catullus uses the sparrow to do several things in each poem. In carmina 2, Catullus states "Passer, deliciae meae puellae", sparrow, delight of my girl, to show how much the girl loves the sparrow. The sparrow in this context seems to know so much about the girl. The sparrow knows about the happiness and sorrows of the girl. The sparrow knows more about the girl than the girl's mother knows. In carmina 3, Catullus states "passer, deliciae meae puellae, quem plus illa oculis suis amabat", the sparrow delight of my girl, whom she loves more than her own eyes, to show that the girl loves the sparrow so much that she loves the sparrow more than her own eyes. Catullus is doing the same thing in each poem by using the phrase "passer, deliciae meae puellae".