Friday, February 16, 2007

Week 7: The Effects of Langauge, or, How Language Affects Us

We had very rich, thoughtful discussion today about our recent set of poems: 3, 70, 8, 87 and 60. Thanks to all of you for making that happen.

One thing we can probably not look at enough is how it is that Catullus does what he does. In other words, how does he use Latin language to create certain effects, and how do those effects affect us when we read the Latin.

Choose one of the following and reflect on it, citing evidence in Latin (with translation).

A. How does Catullus create the effect of outrage in carmen 60? What effects of language does he use? Outrage should be the affect (how it makes us feel, or how he helps us see how he feels).

B. Consider how poem 87 echoes poem 8. What language (the effects) does he use in both? How does that language affect the reader, or set the reader up to see and feel Catullus' feelings?

40 comments:

tram192 said...

Catullus states in both that there will never be anyone in Lesbia's life that will love her the way he loved her. In poem 87 he says: "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam
vere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea est." which translates to: No woman can truthfully say she was so much loved, as my Lesbia was loved by me. In poem 8 Catullus says: "amata nobis quantum amabitur nulla." This translates to: she who was loved by me as none will ever be loved. These two poems sets the reader up to see that Catullus really loves Lesbia so much to the point where he thinks no one esle could love her the same. In poem 8 it seems like he is disappointed at the fact that Lesbia does not love him, so he is trying to give himself advice through his poem and give himself courage to move on with his life. He says to himself in poem 8: "Nunc iam illa non vult: tu quoque impotens noli,
nec quae fugit sectare, nec miser vive,
sed obstinata mente perfer, obdura." This translates to "Now she desires no more: do you too, weakling, not desire;
and do not chase her who flees, nor live in unhappiness,
but harden your heart, endure and stand fast."

In_other_words said...

A.
In Carmen 60, Catullus uses allisions to monsters and adjectives of fury to show how outraged he is. Catullus not only compares his once "dear love" to Scylla, the female sea-monster of canine legs, but he holds Lesbia's personality against such a ruthless monster. Catullus uses "infima inguinum parte" to show that Lesbia didn't just come from Scylla herself, but from the lowest and worst part of her. After feeling betrayed and worthless from Lesbia, Catullus cannot help us from feeling sorry for him. Catullus ends Carmen 60 with the thought to her that,"a nimis fero corde?" After saying that Lesbia is truly the cruel-hearter witch, there is no sympathy towards her. Catullus wins over the crowd. If there had been any doubts of his story, readers left them behind after reading this poem.

Minerva said...

A. Catullus displays outrage through his use of harsh and disparaging adjectives describing Lesbia, evoking the spirit of injustice for the innocent lovelorn man, and his choice of representative animals.
He describes Lesbia's spirit as vile and pitiless, "...mente dura...ac taetra" and her heart as cruel, "...a nimis fero corde". These are words that cannot be spoken lightly in such a context, and convey the depth of loss and the wound Catullus has endured.
As he describes his despair and the utter coldness and lack of feeling his former lover displays to him, he builds sympathy for his own cause, essentially saying, "Look, I did not deserve this. It is unfair for you to treat me this way, as weak, broken, and defenseless as I appear before you now. Surely you are not that unfeeling, yet here you are, proving me otherwise..."
The thought of injustice tends to naturally lean favor to the side of the underdog, the poor jilted lover Catullus.
Catullus' other bit of poetic imagery, the use of the man-consuming (barking) monster Scylla "latrans Scylla" and a fierce African lioness "leaena montibus Libystinis" known to tear her prey limb from limb, helps cement the picture even more clearly in his audience's minds. Lesbia is brutal, thorough, and unmerciful in the destruction of her prey, or ex-lovers as the case may be.

Frank said...

B. Poem 87 echoes poem 8 by continuing to talk about how Lesbia has left Catullus. While Catullus 8 portrays Catullus' mourning and talks about the good memories Lesbia and Catullus had together, Catullus 87 shows a sense of acceptance to the fact that their relationship has ended. In Catullus 8, line 5, Catullus says "amata nobis quantum amabiture nulla," which translates into "she who was loved by me as none will ever be loved." In Catullus 87, line 1, Catullus says "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatamvere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea es," which translates into "No woman can truthfully say she was so much loved, as my Lesbia was loved by me." Both of these verses refer to how deeply Catullus loved Lesbia. In Catullus 8, Catullus uses words like "miser," which means miserable, and "scelesta," which means wretched, to enhance his pain and harsh feelings towards Lesbia. In Catullus 87, Catullus talks more about "fides," or trust, to make the readers feel some sorrow for him.

chmathew said...

Catullus creates the effect of outrage in carmen 60. He compares Lesbia to a lioness from the African mountains and barking Scylla. He says, "nimis fero corde," meaning, "you of too cruel heart," to emphasize his emotion over the break-up. Carmen 60 is basically just one large question, and it has a greater effect on the reader.

XRoSeSrReD317X said...

Poem 87 echoes poem 8 because Catullus creats the same effects in both of the poems. Both poems talk about how Catullus needs to stop being a fool and get on with his life because Lesbia has gotten on with hers. Poem 8 talks about how Catullus has endured for a long time. He asks the questions, "quis nunc te adibit? cui videberis bella?", who will come to you now? to whom will you be seen beautiful?. He asks these questions to her in a taunting way to make Lesbia know that she is going to be at a loss once he moves on. In Poem 87, he says, "nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam vere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea es", no woman is able to say that she has been loved so much, truly Lesvia, as you have been loved by me. He wants her to know that no one has ever loved her as much as he has loved her. This is so that she can again, know what she will be missing out on.

Wolf Angel said...

Catullus’s outrage is seen right away with the first 3 lines. “Num te leaena montibus Libystinis aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte tam mente dura procreavit” meaning roughly that surely she (Lesbia), with a harsh and foul spirit, was not born from a lioness. It seems like a strange thing to say unless looked at more in depth. Basically, it seems that Catullus is saying Lesbia is so cruel that she could not have come from even one of the most vicious beasts (the lioness). Catullus further creates the effect of outrage by filling the poem with strong words, like latrans (barking) in line 2, taetra (foul, offensive, disgraceful) in line 3, and fero (wild, savage, fierce) in line 5. All of those words create the image of a wild, ferocious, bitter animal, and that animal is what Lesbia is to Catullus in this poem. In the last lines, 4-5, “supplicis vocem in novissimo casu contemptam haberes, a nimis fero corde,” “with a too fierce heart, you hold the voice of a supplicant in his final plight in contempt,” the poem ends with a different sense of outrage. It gives the reader the feeling that the “beast” is unjustly cruel and has no sympathy for someone in distress, which is exactly the impression that Catullus would want the poem to have on people, so that they would turn against the cruel thing that caused him pain and anger.

Vance224 said...

In carmen 60, Catullus uses his straight words to convey his anger. In the poem he says, “Num te procreavit mente dura ac taetra ut vocem supplicis contemptam haberes?” By asking if a lioness or Scylla created her with a harsh and offensive mind, he is clearly insulting her, and showing that he is very irate.

latin blogger said...

In Carmen 60, Catullus clearly shows his anger and outrage for Lesbia. His word choice by addressing Lesbia as “a nimis fero corde” ( you of too cruel a heart). Catullus also phrases this poem in the form of a question asking “Num te leaena montibus Libystinis aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte tam mente dura procreauit?”( Surely a lioness from the Lybian mountains or a barking Scylla didn't create you from the lowest part of her loins?) By referring to Scylla and a lioness, Catullus creates references to wild monster-like creatures. This helps creates the outrage in the reader by comparing Lesbia to a child of an animal. Basically, Catullus creates outrage by his harsh words and compasisons. Also by asking the question with “Num” (Surely not), Catullus is showing us that he is in denial that Lesbia his lover could reject his love and betray him.

youknowdis said...

In poem 87 Catullus says "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam vere, quantam a me Lesbia amata mea es" ((No women can truthfully say she was loved so much, as my Lesbia was loved by me)). He is almost bragging saying he gives her everything she would ever need and how he's completly commited to Lesbia.

In poem 8, it does in fact echo poem 87 making it almost a response to 87. Catullus seems to get very angry in this poem saying "at tu dolebis, cum rogaberis nulla. Scelesta, vae te! quae tibi manet vita?" ((But, you will siffer when you're not courted at all. Wicked, alas you! What kind of life remains for you?)).

Catullus is both poems talks as if he is Lesbia or as if Lesbia told him something directly. In poem 87 he is saying that Lesbia has never been treated then how she has been with me and then in poem 8 in the beginning he is talking as if he was Lebia. Saying "Miser Catulle, desinas ineptire, et quod vides perisse peritum ducas ((Miserable Catullus, stop being stupid, and what you see destroyed would you lead to distruction)). Also catullus uses very strong language like miserable, trust, commitment, and strong phrases like 'to whom will seem you pretty'. I think is is because he is very mad at Lesbia because you can see she let him down. It affects the reader because you can almost feel the love or the anger he has for Lesbia in the two poems.

baseball0808 said...

B) Ok, by the time poems 87 and 8 have been written, sorry Catullus, the relationship is over. I would like to think of poem 8 as an overview of the song "Free Bird" by Lynyrd Skynyrd. In the song, the lyrics are sung, "Bye Bye baby. It's been a sweet love." I believe that Catullus is roughly saying the same thing when he says, "Vale puella, iam Catullus obdurat..." meaning, "goodbye girl, Catullus now endures..." So, in other words, I believe that Catullus is trying to get over Lesbia and by saying, Bye, Bye, is the easiest way for him to do it. I mean look on the bright side, if Catullus was good enough to get a stallion like Lesbia, then he surely can get some other amazing gal that will not throw him away later down the road.

welchie said...

Poem 87 echoes poem 8 because in poem 8, Catullus is trying to convince himself that it is Lesbia's fault that they have apparently broken up, not his own. He is trying to convince himself that he is the perfect lover and that it is more her loss than his. Two lines that are very similar are "amata nobis quantum amabitur nulla"/"no loved girl was ever loved by us to greatly" from 8 and "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam vere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea est."/"no woman is able to say that she has been loved, truly, Lesbia, as much as you have been loved by me" from 87. In both poems, Catullus often says "no girl/woman...", making Lesbia seem like she is the luckiest woman in the world because no other woman was loved as much as she was and no other woman was trusted as much as she was. The language Catullus uses, as mentioned above, helps the reader to see that Catullus is really trying hard to convince himself that the breakup is entirely Lesbia's fault and that she is the one who is worse off. He is simply trying to make himself forget her and to move on with his life. And really, who can blame him?

said...

B. In Catullus 87, lines 1 and 2 echo line 5 in Catullus 8. Lines 1 and 2 of Catullus 87 says, "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam vere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea est," which means, "No woman can truthfully say she was so much loved, as my lesbia was loved by me." These lines echo line 5 in Catullus 8 which says, "amata nobis quantum amabitur nulla" which means, "She who was loved by me as none will ever be loved." Catullus sounds hurt in these lines because now it is over and he is just saying his final words as he leaves Lesbia. By Catullus saying that no other woman will ever be loved as much as he loved Lesbia made me realize that he did really love this woman and even though they are departing it seems that he will still always love her.

Kirro said...

B. While reading and comparing carmen 87 and 8, it is appears that 87 could be read as a continuation of 8. The Latin language is used in both to portray a bitter break-up between Catullus and Lesbia. Carmen 8 begins bitter with the words "Miser Catullus," miserable Catullus. He writes how he enjoyed his time with Lesbia, but then writes, "quae tu volebas nec puella nolebat,
fulsere vere candidi tibi soles," or "which you were wishing and the girl was not not wishing, the stars shined truly bright for you." The words here imply a sense of destiny, with the stars themselves shining on Catullus. However, it is obvious that the break-up made Catullus bitter. He writes, "quae tibi manet uita?" or "which life remains for you?" In 87 this feeling is continued. He writes, "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam," or "No woman is able to say that she was loved so much." Catullus here is outraged, that he loved Lesbia so much and yet she did not truly love him in return. The language here is strong. Not only did he love her, but loved her more than anyone has ever been loved. The words portray a more realistic relationship than the poems before, and it is easier for the reader to feel the poet's emotions. And Catullus gives important advice to the victims of love: "At tu, Catulle, destinatus obdura." "And you, Catullus, having endured, endure."

awavehello said...

Catullus expresses outrage by asking a somewhat mocking, retohrical question. He said,
"Num te leaena montibus Libystinis
aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte
tam mente dura procreauit ac taetra...? (Surely a lioness from the African mountains
or barking Scylla didn't beget you from the lowest part of her loins...?)" implying that he feels like a fool for falling for Lesbia. He expresses almost an outrage with himself for falling for her.

Jeep3 said...

"Num" used as the introductory word suggests that Catullus is using an affirmative "surely not", awaiting a negative answer. In this case, "num te leaena montibus Libystinis aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte/surely you are not the lioness of the African mountains, or the barking Scylla did not beget you from the lowest part of her groin." This tells Lesbia that she cannot possibly be the beauty from the mysterious AFrican mountains, but simply the spirit that causes Catullus' final despair. Catullus uses the "ut" in line for suggesting a result clause from the "contemptam haberes/hold in contempt" that he accuses Lesbia of holding. Catullus uses the metaphor of Scylla when pouring out his outrage over Lesbia, since Scylla represents "sex and shamelessness" because of the barking dogs that grow from her loins. In a way, Catullus could be referencing Death, one who guards the gates of Hell who was raped by her son Sin and forever had hellhounds eat out of her lower body area. The suffering that Death endures for eternity is the suffering Catullus is trying to depict for Lesbia. By using this literary device, Catullus emphasizes the anger he has by comparing Lesbia to the suffering spirit that guards Hell, the last place any person wishes to be.

cullenforhire said...

Catullus creates the effect of outrage in carmen 60 through his word choice. Words such as 'leana' and phrases 'aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte' just carry a harshness that is not accidentally achieved. Catullus uses the meter, and I'm sure tone to convey his outrage, and it comes across quite strong. His last question, 'a nimis fero corde?' is one of summation and completely intentional.

Ian said...

A. In Carmen 60, Catullus is raging against the wanton shamelessness of Lesbia, asking her if she is simply using him for the sweet lovin'. His question takes its strength from his use of litotes which encompasses the entire poem, a single sentence. Surely, he says, these beasts did not beget you, when of course the whole point is to suggest that barking Scylla and cruel lionesses are on par with this horrible woman. Which highlights the effectiveness of the use of the beasts of nature, to steal Tom's term, to show her as shameless and sly, a manipulative wench playing with a new toy.

Stay frosty - Ian

whereisyourboytonight said...

It is easy to see how Catullus creates outrage in this poem. To begin with, the poem is one sentence, a question. He begins the poem with “Num,” which can be translated as “surely not.” This gives the poem an air of perhaps not sarcasm or disbelief, but a sense that the question should be answered with a firm “no.” Any question posed to receive no as an answer has the effect of putting the person to whom the question is posed on the defensive; they are not going to want to be friendly or be happy about the question or happy with the questioner. Catullus also uses some harsh allusions to evoke outrage. Lines 1-2, “Num te leaena montibus Libystinis/ aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte,” which can be translated as “Surely a lioness in the African mountains or Scylla barking from the lowest part of a groin…” These allusions are not nice by any means. To suggest that these monsters had any part in creating or influencing the person who this poem is about is highly offensive. To be mentioned in the same line as these monsters would outrage anyone.

Dr. Gregory House said...

In Carmen 60 Catullus creates the effect of outrage in both the word choice and the structure of the poem. By using the comparison that Lesbia was born of a barking monster or a cruel lioness, “Num te leaena montibus Libystinis aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte…procreavit” (Surely you lioness from the mountains of Libya or Scylla barking from the lowest part of her body has created you…). Catullus uses this as a seemingly bitter insult towards Lesbia. By using the character Scylla, one of the most horrible creatures in Roman mythology, Catullus shows his true disdain for Lesbia. Also using the word “supplicis” or suppliant to describe himself, shows how Catullus places all of the blame on Lesbia. He uses the word as if he is a humble petitioner in his last and final despair. Catullus is obviously blaming Lesbia for whatever rift happened between him. He then shows this rage through his poetry.

Another way Catullus uses the Latin to convey his outrage is by making the entire poem one extended question. The as the lines continue, Catullus’ rage seems to build and becomes even more biting. First he refers to Lesbia as cruel or “infima,” then he refers to her harsh mind or “dura mente,” then he accuses her of having a too-cruel heart or “nimis corde.” You can almost hear the rage mounting when he doesn’t use punctuation. It is as if he is so frustrated that he can’t even breathe when talking about her. The fact that Catullus didn’t break the poem into a couple of different sentences makes the poem stronger and more commanding.

unbuma said...

In Catullus's poems, 87 echos 8. In Carmen 87 Catullus is saying that no woman has been loved by someone as much as he loves Lesbia (Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam
vere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea est.). It echos 8 by talking about how much he loved her, fulsere vere candidi tibi soles,(Truly the sun shone bright for you.)
Catullus's language that he uses in the poems shows that he really cared for her.Ibi illa multa cum iocosa fiebant,then there took place those many jolly scenes.
Catullus's language sets up the reader to see and feel his his feelings by trying to make it easy to relate to him and what he is thinking.

Pinky said...

Catallus created the affect of outrage in Carmen 60 by saying at the end “a nimis fero corde?” or “ah, you of too cruel heart?” He uses a question to expel his anger toward Lesbia.

Orz said...

In Catullus 87, Catullus says, "nulla fides ullo fuit umquam in foedere tanta," in which the emphasis is on nulla fides tanta. There was no big trust from Lesbia. Then in Catullus 8, he describes his emotion toward Lesbia through last 8 lines. "vale, puella. iam Catullus obdurat, nec te requiret nec rogabit invitam. at tu dolebis, cum roga beris nulla. scelesta, vae te! quae tibi manet vita? quis nuc te adibit? cui videberis bella? quem nunc amabis? cuius ess diceris? quem basiabis? cui labella mordebis? at tu, Catulle, destinatus obdura. Basically he tells her that he will endure without her, and he will not ask unwillingly. He also says that she'll be sorry when she will not be asked by other people. He calls Lesbia a wretched person, then says that no one will seek her and asks her whom she will kiss if none seeks her.
Simply Catullus does not see the venustas in her. Readers can clearly image the end of their relationship.

5ABIblood said...

Carmen 60 is one long sentence which asks one outraged question. The power of the poem comes from the wildness of its language and imagery and its vagueness. The word leaena (lioness) and Scyalla are intermingled to use the idea of “wild animal parentage” to express her belief in her hardheartedness. Imagery is used in the first two lines, and language is used in the third line. When Catullus says, “tam mente dura procreauit ac taetra” (you of such pitiless, vile spirit that you hold in contempt). And the question is directed in the last two lines.

5ABIblood said...

Carmen 60 is one long sentence which asks one outraged question. The power of the poem comes from the wildness of its language and imagery and its vagueness. The word leaena (lioness) and Scyalla are intermingled to use the idea of “wild animal parentage” to express her belief in her hardheartedness. Imagery is used in the first two lines, and language is used in the third line. When Catullus says, “tam mente dura procreauit ac taetra” (you of such pitiless, vile spirit that you hold in contempt). And the question is directed in the last two lines.

TiPViking said...

A- Catullus uses several different literary techniques in his expression of outrage against Lesbia in Carmen 60. In Carmen 60 the most striking pieces are the descriptions of Lesbia as being born from a lioness or from Scylla, the mythological terror herself, in the first two lines- “Num te leaena montibus Libystinis
aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte” or “Surely a lioness from the mountains of Africa or barking Scylla didn’t give birth to you”- Scylla being a treacherous, sinister mythological creature who was supposed to have killed many men. By using such a strong allusion- for indeed, Catullus would not have been surprised if Lesbia was a scion of Scylla- Catullus shows that not only his feelings, but also his reason and intellect have been hurt by what he views as a vile betrayal. Catullus also describes Lesbia as having “tam mente dura,” or such a hard (harsh is better here) mind, and as being taetra- abominable, vile, loathsome, any hate-filled descriptions that can come to mind. Even the use of only one ellision brings out the depth of the rage Catullus feels- every word, every statement, is full and complete in his mind. There is no going back for Catullus- though he may wish that events had never unfolded like they had, now that Lesbia and he are no longer together, Catullus cannot stand the mere thought of her.

LOL said...

B. In poems 87 and 8, Catullus uses language with distinct tones and word choices to deliver effects to the reader and to set the reader up to see and feel his feelings. The two poems have somewhat sad, nostalgic, determined, and regretful tones. In lines 1-2 of Carmen 8, Catullus says, "Miser Catulle, desinas ineptire, et quod vides perisse perditum ducas." This is translated as "Miserable Catullus, may you stop being a fool, and what you see to have perished may you consider destroyed." By using such a word as "miser" to describe himself, Catullus reveals that he is miserable. When he says, "and what you see to have perished may you consider destroyed," he is saying that his relationship with Lesbia is over, and that is the reason for his sadness. In lines 3-5, Catullus says, "Fulsere quondam candidi tibi soles, cum ventitabas quo puella ducebat, amata nobis quantum amabitur nulla." This is translated as, "The stars once shined bright for you, when you were coming again and again to where the girl was leading, she who was loved by me as none will ever be loved." In lines 3-4 of Carmen 87, Catullus says, "Nulla fides ullo fuit umquam in foedere tanta, quanta in amore tuo ex parte reperta mea est." This is translated as, "No trust was ever so great in any treaty, as the trust found in your love on my part." In these lines, Catullus expresses nostalgia and longing for the good times when he and Lesbia were in love. In lines 10-14 of Carmen 8, Catullus says, "Nec quae fugit sectare, nec miser vive, sed obstinata mente perfer, obdura. Vale, puella. Iam Catullus obdurat, nec te requiret nec rogabit invitam. At tu dolebis, cum rogaberis nulla." This is translated as, "And follow not she who flees, and do not be miserable, but endure with a stubborn mind, endure. Good-bye, girl. Now Catullus endures, and he will not look for you nor will he ask out an unwilling you. But you will be sad, when you are asked out by no one." In these lines, Catullus shows determination that he will live a good and happy life without Lesbia. Yet when he says that Lesbia will be sad when she is asked out by no one, he somewhat shows regretfulness in that he seems bitter that their relationship did not work out.

hahaha psyche said...

In Carmen 60, Catullus uses words such as latrans (bark), which incites thoughts of harsh noises, and infima (lowest), taetra (vile). These are all words that make one think of dirty and undesirable thoughts. While thinking these awful and vile things, it might confuse us to think, at the same time, of Lesbia, his elleged lover. These words are used to elicit negitive thoughts about her, and Catullus' relationship with her.

inthecake said...

In Carmen 60, Catullus creates the effect of outrage. Throughout the whole poem, Catullus is asking a question and with each line his tone becomes more intense. In line 4, Catullus uses the superlative form in novissimo, which means “his last and final despair”. Catullus uses the superlative to show the highest meaning of this work and show how he is feeling. Catullus uses strong descriptive words to describe Lesbia and his feelings of outrage such as line 4, “taetra” which means offensive or vile and line 4 “dura” which means harsh or cruel. The last line of the poem, line 5, Catullus is ending his poem and his elongated question with asking if Lesbia is too cruel of a heart, “contemptam haberes, a nimis fero corde?”. All of the strong description words that represent anger and outrage along with Catullus’ use of superlatives to show the height of his feelings are just a few effects of language he uses. By reading these words, and seeing the anger heighten every line, Catullus is making the reader feel his anger and by using the superlative and the harsh descriptive words he helps us to see how he is truly feeling.

Jesx said...

A. Catullus uses much anger in poem 60 towards a girl suspected to be Lesbia. He suggests that she has "barking loins" or "latrons infirma." He details how cruel she is by using metaphors to describe her. Plus, he says "you of too cruel heart" or "a nimis fero corde." It seems like a pretty harsh description, so we can tell he is outraged by something that she has done or said.

Eureka! said...

Catullus speaks of his relationship with Lesbia that has gone sour in both Carmen 8 and Carmen 87. In both poems he tries to console himself. He uses certain effects in each poem to affect the reader.
In Carmen 8, Catullus uses direct addresses and a series of questions to affect the reader.In Carmen 8, Catullus addresses both himself and Lesbia. Catullus begins the poem by saying in line 1, "Miser, Catulle, desinas ineptire et quod vides perisse perditum ducas." "Wretched Catullus, stop being a fool and consider that which you see to have died." Catullus is trying to get over Lesbia. He is trying to move on. Catullus also addresses Lesbia in Carmen 8. In line 12, he says, "vale, puella. Iam Catullus obdurat." "Goodbye, girl. now catullus endures." Catullus is trying to break his ties with Lesbia. He continues to address her from line 12 to line 18. He tells Lesbia all of the things she will be missing since she broke off their relationship. The direct addresses he uses help create a conversational tone for the poem. In line 16 he says, "quis nunc te adibit? cui videberis bella? quem nunc amabis? cuius esse diceris?" "Who will go to you now? To who will you be seen as beautiful? Whom will you love now? Whos will you be said to be?" The seires of questions Catullus asks emphasize everything Lesbia is giving up. The questions in the poem also help to create a conversational tone and draw the reader in.
In Carmen 87, Catullus uses direct address to affect the redaer. All of Catullus 87 is a direct address. He is speaking to Lesbia. Carmen 87 says, "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam vere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea es. nulla fides ullo fuit umquam in foedere tanta, quanta in amore tuo ex parte reperta mea est." "No woman is able to say that she has been loved so much truly, Lesbia, as you have been loved by me. No faith was ever so great in a relationship as the faith I have found in your love on my part is." Catullus trying to convince himself that Lesbia is the one who is being hurt by the break up. He is trying to console himself. The direct address of Lesbia helps to draw the reader into the poem.

Eureka! said...

In Carmen 8 and Carmen 87 Catullus speaks of his relationship with Lesbia that has ended. Both poems are attempts of Catullus to console himself. He uses effects of the language in both of these poems to affect the reader.
In Carmen 8, Catullus uses direct address and a series of questions to affect the reader. Catullus direcly addresses both himself and Lesbia in Carmen 8. In line 1, Catullus writes, "miser Catulle, desinas ineptire, et quod vides perisse perditum ducas." "Wretched Catullus, Stop being a fool and consider that which you see to have died destroyed." IN line 12, Catullus begins addressing Lesbia nd continues to address her until line 18. He writes in line 12, "vale, puella. iam Catullus obdurat." "Goodbye, girl. now Catullus endures." The direct addresses help to create a conversational tone in the poem. Catullus also uses a series of questions aimed at Lesbia to affect the reader. In line 16 to line 17 Catullus writes, "quis nunc te adibit? cui videberis bella? quem nunc amabis? cuius esse diceris?" "who will go to you now? To who will you bee seen as beautiful? Whom will you love now? Whose will you be said to be?" These questions create a conversational tone.
In Carmen 87 Catullus uses direct address to affect the reader.Carmen 87 reads, "Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam vere, quantum a me Lesbia amata mea es. nulla fides ullo fuit umquam in foedere tanta, quanta in amore tuo ex parte reperta mea est." "No woman is able to say that she has been loved so much truly, Lesbia, as you have been loved by me. No faith was ever so great in a relationship as the faith i have found in your love on my part is." This entire poem is directly addressing Lesbia. Catullus's use of direct address reall draws the reader into the poem.

swmslw said...

Catullus echoes Carmen 8 with Carmen 87 by berating himself in 8 for loving Lesbia, nunc iam illa vult; tu quoque inpotens noli, nec quae fugit sectare, nec miser vive sed obstinata mente perfer, obdura, now she desires no more, do you too weakling, not desire; and do not chase her who flees, nor live in unhappiness, but harden your heart, endure. He is saying here that he was fully in love with Lesbia during the relationship and should not chase after her when they parted ways, and if he did it would be to his own detriment, but that he still very much loved Lesbia during their relationship. This is quite similar to 87 when Catullus states, nulla fides ullo fuit umquam in foedere tanta, quanta in amore tuo ex parte reperta mea est, no such big trust was ever kept in any commitment before as, on my side, my love for you was kept. This again affirms Catullus' unwavering love for Lesbia during the relationship, similar to 8, and has a hint of bitterness in the tone of the poem because they split and Catullus feels almost betrayed by Lesbia because he loved her so much. He uses language that shows his love for Lesbia during the relationship and how hurt he was after the relationship ended. This language sets the reader up to identify with Catullus's feelings during and after the break-up.

swmslw said...

Catullus echoes Carmen 8 with Carmen 87 by berating himself in 8 for loving Lesbia, nunc iam illa vult; tu quoque inpotens noli, nec quae fugit sectare, nec miser vive sed obstinata mente perfer, obdura, now she desires no more, do you too weakling, not desire; and do not chase her who flees, nor live in unhappiness, but harden your heart, endure. He is saying here that he was fully in love with Lesbia during the relationship and should not chase after her when they parted ways, and if he did it would be to his own detriment, but that he still very much loved Lesbia during their relationship. This is quite similar to 87 when Catullus states, nulla fides ullo fuit umquam in foedere tanta, quanta in amore tuo ex parte reperta mea est, no such big trust was ever kept in any commitment before as, on my side, my love for you was kept. This again affirms Catullus' unwavering love for Lesbia during the relationship, similar to 8, and has a hint of bitterness in the tone of the poem because they split and Catullus feels almost betrayed by Lesbia because he loved her so much. He uses language that shows his love for Lesbia during the relationship and how hurt he was after the relationship ended. This language sets the reader up to identify with Catullus's feelings during and after the break-up.

I can't beleive magister is a Florida Gator!!! said...

In Carmen 87 and 8 Catullus is going through an emotionally hard time. This is attributed to the fact that he put all of his heart in Lesbia, Nulla potest mulier tantum se dicere amatam(Carmen 87) translated into: no woman can truthfully say she was so much loved [By Catullus]. This hurt is transferred over into Carmen 8, but Catullus’ hurt seems to turn into depression and then rage. Near the beginning of Carmen 8 he says: Fulsere quondam candidi tibi soles. Once the sun shone bright for you. He displays how distraught he is and that it is dark for Catullus. Then toward the end of the poem Catullus really unloads on Lesbia when he says: Scelesta, uae te, quae tibi manet uita?
Quis nunc te adibit? cui videberis bella? Quem nunc amabis? Cuius esse diceris?
Quem basiabis? Cui labella mordebis? This is translated into: Wretch, pity on you! What life lies in store for you! Who will come to you now? Who will think you pretty? Whom will you love now? Who will people say you are? Whom will you kiss? Whose lips will you bite? There is no question with the harsh language in 87 and 8 that it is not only over between them, but that the love shared between Catullus and Lesbia will never be back again.

Through the poems the reader feels all the emotions that are going through Catullus. The sadness that turns into disparity and disparity that turns into hurt and hurt that turns into a final emotional finish in Carmen 8.

bri720hco said...

A.In carmen 60 Catullus shows a sence of anger towards a woman (we suspect him to be speaking about Lesbia). he states that she has a cruel heart or "a nimis fero corde". Catullus says that she has barking loins or "latrans infima". He shows anger throught very harsh words, in a way the woman broke his heart. he questions if she just used him just to have someone to love her the way he did.

Gretzky said...

In carmen 60 catullus makes it seem like he is mad by the way that he asks the retroical question. He is calling her names such as pitiless, vile spirit (Line 3 "mente dura procreauit"). The whole idea of it being a rethorical question also adds to the fact of him being mad. Ususaly the only time you ask a retorical questions and call people names is when you are mad at them and just want to rant and rage about something. This is what catullus seems to do. Magister i am sorry that this is so late to be posted. My internet has been down because we just got a new service. Please when you post this can you take out this part. Thank you Ryan

Will Ravon said...

Catullus says in each poem that Lesbia has never been loved like he loved her and that he would rather have no one else. This feeling makes one feel the love and loss Catullus feels when he thinks about Lesbia. He also makes one feel the anger he has when he thinks about Lesbia leaving him.

Postransky said...

A) Catullus creates the effect of outrage in carmen 60 by using harsh words (ah, you of too cruel heart, a nimis fero corde) and strange descriptions (barking Scylla, Scylla latrans.) Using these words, he makes the readers feel a spite for Lesbia, the girl he once glorified.

srivatsanenator said...

A.The language of Catullus' Carmen 60 is not only colorful but vivid. It paints a clear picture of the outrage and anger of Catullus. One example of this vivid language is present in lines 1-2,"Num te leaena montibus Libystinis aut Scylla latrans infima inguinum parte."This roughly translates to, Surely a lioness from the African mountains or barking Scylla didn't beget you from the lowest part of her loins" This statement basically compares Lesbia as something that is so dirty that it would come from the loins of Scylla. This is a powerful illusion to a famous monster. Another example of the anger and outrage expressed in this poem is best shown in the lat line of the poem,"a nimis fero corde?" Basically this quote asks Lesbia about the natue of her cruel heart. Cruel heart is a very powerful phrase and it really shows how angry Catullus is.